Official list updates

Shouldn’t the official Criterion list (https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/the+criterion+collection/) be updated with all Agnès Varda’s movies? This movie for instance is not an official check: https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/daguerreotypes/ but is is included in the box that is due to be released this August: https://www.criterion.com/boxsets/3432-the-complete-films-of-agn-s-varda . This goes for more of her feature documentaries, like https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/lunivers+de+jacques+demy/ I’m not sure about the criteria you use for the shorts included in the box.

I think the reason is that only releases with spine number get added to the Criterion list. That boxset doesn’t correspond to any spine number (but some movies in it do, like you can see here: https://www.criterion.com/shop/browse/list?director=varda-agnes)

A minor correction on BFI’s 100 European Horror Films after I got a copy of the book.

#19 Danza macabra 1964 — a.k.a. Castle of Blood, in 2 top lists – INCORRECT

#19 Horror Castle (1963) La vergine di Norimberga – CORRECT

Given the nearness in dates and similarity of names, it’s easy to see how the two were confused, but the book clearly includes La vergine di Norimberga (not Danza macabra though both films were official before and Danza remains official after thanks to TSZDT).

The Euro Horror list has been updated.

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In the official list ‘The Story of Film – An Odyssey’ by Mark Cousins https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/mark+cousinss+the+story+of+film+an+odyssey/ this title called ‘Shiva’ https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/shiva-2006/ should be replaced by this one (als called Shiva and directed by the same director): https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/shiva/

Thanks! We’ll look into this and verify which film should be included in the list.

Thanks for the update in the blog. But the official Russia list has not really been changed yet, or? It doesn’t show up in the progress page.

It shows up for me on my progress page, in between “Emma Beare’s 501 Must-See Mov…” and “Empire’s The 100 Best Films o…” so perhaps there was a slight delay before it appeared?

The Livejournal list is also removed from my progress page, and the other two new lists show up.

Yes, now it’s all in place. Thanks.

I just updated the Unesco list. 77 titles have been added.

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Hey everyone,

I have been working on watching all of the films in the Film as a Subversive Art List.

It seems, that the entry for The Second in Command is wrong since I could not find any mention of it in the book. There is indeed a passing sentence about a film called “The Second Coming” which from the phrasing I assume Vogel never watched. It does not have a IMDb link but apparently the director was William Adler which might explain the confusion (similar name, similar director name, same year). I would suggest removing the film from the list.

Going by this example I feel a bit reluctant about how meaningful the implementation of this list really is. Vogel has several sections where he lists the movies he deems essential (my wording) and I wouldn’t necessarily add films to a list just because he mentions them once in a half sentence.

Here is the quote from the book:

Though the camera had “moved” in Griffith and, according to
James Card, in William Adler’s The Second Coming (1915), (1)
It was Karl Freund’s moving camera in F.W. Murnau’s The Last
Laugh (1924) and E.A. Dupont’s Variety (1925) that served
as harbinger of a revolution which – with the development
of montage – transformed cinema into an art form.

Edit: Some confusion since the IMDb page for William Adler also links to The Second in Command –

Hi Joschi, thanks for posting!

I think the Vogel list has a number of questionable entries - I’ve been meaning to comb through the list one by one and compare it with the source, but it keeps sliding down my to-do list.

Do you have a physical copy of the book, or just the pdf version that’s been floating around? I have the pdf, but would love to compare it to a copy of the actual book to make sure it’s the same.

Regarding The Second in Command, I think you’re right. I found the same passage you quoted in my pdf, and I cannot find The Second in Command elsewhere. There’s the possibility that the film is known by a different name in the book, so I’ll make a note of it for now to check deeper when I go through the list in detail.

Hi Fergenaprido,

I have a physical version of the revised German version published in 1997. I found the sentence both in the PDF I have of the English version and in the German print version.

(It opens with a foreword by Vogel)

My book was written in English but my mother tongue is German.
It is to my great pleasure that this first revised edition will be published in German.
An additional - and quite perverse - pleasure is the fact that it happens in Austria
where I was almost killed under the Hitler regime.

I tried to find a copy of “The Film Experience” to check out the passage myself. It appears to be on page 9 of the book.

I actually scanned through the register at the end of the German version and you can actually see that “The Second in Command” isn’t listed under the films and William Bowman isn’t listed under the directors. (See attached image)

If it would be of any help or even wanted I could go through with a list that only features the films with a detailed description. Since every section has quite an expansive list of films and Vogels interest in the subversion, it is quite easy to point out which films make up the meat of the list.

Greetings!

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Thanks for that.

Let me shift around some of my priorities for this upcoming week so that I can take a look at Vogel. I’ll sort through the list and come up with what I think should and should not be included based on the pdf version, then I’ll share it with you so that you can doublecheck - I wouldn’t want to have you go through everything as it seems like a lot of unnecessary work. I’m not sure what was used as the basis for the original list on icm - it’s been there so long I’m not sure any of the current mods even know. I’ll also see what the difference is between a list of only featured films and a list of everything mentioned.

Exactly. I think it was already official even before I joined iCM.

It was the pdf, but the way the films are mentioned in the book means that there are films which are the actual entries and films like that which are mentioned as references on the list. Personally I think only the actual entries in the book should be in the list, but the list I think has passing entries as well, though possibly not all? It’s such a pain to comb through the pdf, I tried once and got about a quarter of the way through when I decided the formatting was too much for me and I wasn’t sure how accurate the result would be.

It is a pain really. My first thought was to just add the listed films at the end of each section as you mentioned.
The German version makes this distinction even clearer since it is better formatted (still painful but more manageable).

But then I noticed that there are films that Vogel is referencing with images quite a bit without listing them in any section. For example ‘Blow Up’ appears three times (at least that’s what the register says). The first and second time a film still with an extensive caption is featured and the third time it is just a passing sentence about the quality of films religious institutions disapproved of.

The film is however, never included in any of the lists. From the context above I would assume that Vogel would have included the film in his canon. The German reprint also features the exact same film stills with the extensive commentary.

My interim conclusion is to include all films listed at the end of a section but also the films referenced by a film still. These have a caption that is comparable in length to that of many other films.

I started to go through the list as described above referencing both the German and the English version. I had about one third done before I saw Fergenaprido’s comment and called it a day. (Link to ICM list)

I am attaching some images to illustrate the Blow Up example.

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So, I went through with the list like suggested and only added films that are listed in the “Films” section. In total we have just under 400 films so about 200 films less than before. Please check it out here.

There are some curiosities: The German version lists films that are not in my English PDF. These seem to be films released between 1974 and 1976. Hard to tell since that PDF does not seem to be reliable. The German version was published in 1997 and features a new introduction from Amos Vogel from that year. Vogel specifically points out some “recent” films he recommends (from the 90s), but in the lists there is no film listed after 1976. I decided to stay with the films listed for now.

I also noticed that my English PDF has a different order compared to the German book. To make future comparisons easier, I will list here the sections and the films in it.

I will also attach a picture that shows all the films on this version not included on the official current ICM version.

There are still 12 films missing. I posted a comment on the list with Info I could find. I don’t think any of them have an IMDb page.

Legend: Range on the ICM list // first film // last film

  • Introduction // 1 – 18 // Blue Moses // Why Not

PART I – SUBVERSION OF FORM

  • UdSSR // 19 – 22 // Strike // Man with a Movie Camera

  • Expressionism // 23 – 33 // The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari // The Reality of Karel Appel

  • Surrealism // 34 – 47 // Aos // The Lead Shoes

  • Dada and Pop-Art // 48 – 58 // Anemic Cinema // Sort of a Commercial for an Icebag

  • Destruction of Time and Space // 59 – 70 // Aktion 540 // Smoking

  • Destruction of Plot and Narration // 71 – 82 // Akran // Celine and Julie Go Boating

  • Attacking Montage // 83 – 89 // Before the Revolution // Wavelength

  • The Camera is moving // 90 – 93 // The Last Laugh // Variety

  • Minimal Cinema // 94 – 102 // Color Film // Sleep

  • Boundaries of Film // 103 – 119 // Bells of Atlantis // Pasadena Freeway Stills (Missing! –Film before: Line Describing a Cone)

PART II – SUBVERSION OF CONTENT

  • Revolutionary Cinemas // 120 – 161 // Havoc // More Nuclear Stations (Missing! – Film before: The California Reich)

  • Eastern Subversions // 162 – 195 // Love Affair // Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors

  • The Third World // 196 – 214 // A Very Crazy Asylum // Reed: Insurgent Mexico

  • DDR: Against the West // 215 – 218 // Holiday on Sylt // The Laughing Man

  • Fascist Cinema // 219 – 221 // Triumph of the Will // The Eternal Jew

  • Secrets and Revelations // 222 – 246 // Beauty Knows No Pain // La Soufrière

PART III – FORBIDDEN THEMES

  • Nudity // 247 – 250 // The Bed // No. 4

  • Erotic and pornographic film // 251 – 271 // Beaver-Films // What Goes on at Sex Therapy Clinics (Missing! – Film before: Take me)

  • The End of Sexual Tabus // 272 – 301 // The Horrible Dr. Hichcock // The Exorcist

  • The First Secret: Birth // 302 – 306 // All My Babies // Window Water Baby Moving

  • The last Secret: Death

  1. Death // 307 – 329 // The Act of Seeing with One’s Own Eyes // The War Game
  2. Concentration Camps // 330 - 340 // Archaeology // Warsaw Ghetto
  • Blasphemy // 341 – 356 // L’Age d’Or // Viridiana

  • Trance and Witchcraft // 357 – 369 // The Andromeda Strain // Tarantula

PART IV – FOR A NEW CONCIOUSNESS

  • Counter Culture and Avantgarde // 370-385 // Apotheosis // Jonah Who Will Be 25 in the Year 2000!

Thanks Joschi. I appreciate the hard work you’re putting in to this. I haven’t gone through your lists yet, but I’ll use them as reference for when I go through the pdf later this week.

I am willing to help with this as well. I have got the 1979 German edition of the book.

Which are the 12 films that are lacking an imdb entry?

If you want to cross-check, I already entered all the films into a list on ICM (See above).
On the ICM list I also listed the films that are missing. If I could find some Infos online, I added them via link.

Prune Flat (Robert Whitman, USA, 1965) after Le sang d’un poète p. 97
Pasadena Freeway Stills (Gary Beydler, USA 1976) after Line Describin a Cone p. 137
Delaware (Newsreel, USA 1968/1969) after Deadline for Action p. 143
Lovejoy’s Nuclear War (Dan Keller, USA 1976) after Troublemakers p. 159
More Nuclear Stations (Per Mannstaedt, Denmark, 1976) after The California Reich p. 159
Strahov (Anonymous, Cz, 1967) after Per Aspera Ad Astra p. 170
Acupunctural Anaesthesia (Peking TV, China, 1971) after Beauty Knows No Pain p. 205
Beaver Films (USA, 1970…) after No.4 p. 248
What Goes On At Sex Therapy Clinics (Community Medical Cable Casting, USA, 1972) after Take Me p. 264
Posledni veci cloveka (Jovan Kubicek, Cz, 1967) after Ikiteite yokatta p. 306
The Race (William Copland, Australia, 1970) after Winter Soldier p. 310
Les Camps de la Mort (France, 1947) after Mesto darované p. 313